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     1  +1 2014 sep 30pw80 forumEarly Yamaha PW80 - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsBought this little beauty on the weekend for $100. The previous owner rebuilt the engine with a 1mm oversize piston, and then the oil pump ... PW80 Ignition doesn't5 postsFeb 9, 2014 PW80 or TTR90??10 postsFeb 27, 2013 pw80 tune advice10 postsDec 19, 2010 PW80 year ?3 postsNov 30, 2008More results from www.dirtbikeworld.net
     1  ~ 2014 sep 13yamaha pw80 forumBought this little beauty on the weekend for $100. The previous owner rebuilt the engine with a 1mm oversize piston, and then the oil pump ... Yamaha PW80 Crankshaft - difference between early and ...1 post14 Feb 2013 pw80 tune advice10 posts19 Dec 2010More results from www.dirtbikeworld.net
     1  ~ 2014 aug 21hyundai iload dirtdikesI-Load vans - Page 3 - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsPage 3- I-Load vans Off Track Talk. ... Wider in the back, I can see 3 bikes in there (not so comfortably) 3 blokes in the front will be most ... iLoad problems-Engine light fix??? - Page 62 posts8 Apr 2014 Hyundai Iload /Imax question: Iload drivers please...10 posts15 Feb 2014mx van hiace/ vito?????10 posts11 Feb 2011Thoughts on vans.10 posts10 Sep 2009More results from www.dirtbikeworld.net
     3  +49 2014 sep 17service interva fcr 250 09wr 250 super trail [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members Forums[Archive] wr 250 super trail General Bike Related Discussion.
     3  +19 2014 sep 17service interval fcr 250
     3  -1 2014 sep 11pod mx partsPODMX K700 Knee Braces - Service Them! - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net PODMX K700 Knee Braces - Service Them! General ... Anywho, having installed the new parts to one brace, I have this to say. If you own a set ...
     3  +1 2014 aug 24dirt bike web templateWebsite templates and hosting. - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsBasically i am going to do one myself using a template off the web and go from there. I was given a site with some(a lot) of templates , does ...
     3  +3 2014 aug 03hitchmate bike carrierTow-bar mounted bike carrier (Moto) - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Can anyone recommend a good trailer hitch mounted bike carrier ? I've seen ... I had a Hitchmate , fully ADR'd, lights etc but a bit over $1000.
     4  ~ 2014 aug 25gpr stabilizer australiaScotts V GPR Stabilizer - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsIs a Scotts stabilizer worth the extra $150 over the GPR V4? I looked on Rocky Mtn MX and can get a GPR V4 delivered for $520 AUD.
     5  -2 2014 oct 01wr200 reviewWR200 vs KDX200 - Page 2 - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsPage 2- WR200 vs KDX200 General Bike Related Discussion. WR200 /DT200 Expansion chamber compatible?10 posts30 May 2013Yamaha WR200 6 posts19 Mar 2012 Wr200 any good?10 posts26 Aug 2008More results from www.dirtbikeworld.net
     5  -3 2014 sep 29jeb corliss balls wheelbarrowJesus! [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsThe blokes name is Jeb Corliss ! Some people say he has to carry his balls around in a wheelbarrow !:eek: After watching this I'd believe it!
     5  ~ 2014 sep 17dirt rider net forumsdbw - dirtbikeworld. net Members Forums - Powered by vBulletinThis is a discussion forum for Australian dirtbike riders . ... Welcome to the dbw - dirtbikeworld. net Members Forums . If this is your first ... dbw's Junior Dirtbikers .
     5  +96 2014 aug 07bunning waterproof floor paintCalling all bathroom renovation experts [Archive] - dbw Have a waterproofing kit for the wet room style shower. ... True, but it's much better to go floor to ceiling, less painting in the future. ... floor .Ultraflex adhesive from Bunnings will do the trick as will most other reputable brands.
     5  ~ 2014 jul 26woodworking with slab timberBest Way To Dress Timber Slabs - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members Best Way To Dress Timber Slabs Off Track Talk. ... Talk to local woodworking association or get on Aussie wooodworking forums and tell them ...
     6  +95 2014 jul 25treated pine hawthorne bridgeVandalism Latrobe River Road Carpark [Archive] - dbw the toilet standing... i hope they enjoyed breathing in Treated Pine all night, morons! ... We camp at Hawthorn bridge every couple of months.
     7  ~ 2014 sep 25scott enduro 250 sizingEnduro Jackets [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsPurchased a Scott enduro jacket from Bolton's for $150. ... is. i have a thore phase jacket in xxxl that needs replacing and its just the right size .
     7  +4 2014 sep 20acerbis multiploBarkbuster EGO Vs Acerbis Multiplo - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Barkbuster EGO Vs Acerbis Multiplo General Bike Related Discussion.
     7  +6 2014 sep 13redbook for bikeRedbook for bikes ? - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsRedbook for bikes ? General Bike Related Discussion.
     7  -3 2014 sep 05jeb corliss testicles wheelbarrow
     7  -1 2014 aug 26husaberg rebuilt motor70 degree husaberg 450 engine rebuilds - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net How often are 70 degree husaberg 450 owners (2009-2012) rebuilding their top End ? I change the oil /filter every 10hrs. Mine has done ...
     7  -2 2014 aug 25buy postie bikeWhere to buy a postie from? - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsPostie Bike World. ... Until recently you could not buy a new Postie with ADR to register as they were only for Australia Post and when they did ...
     7  +41 2014 aug 15mini bikes grafton nswGrafton NSW Tracks - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsGrafton NSW Tracks General Bike Related Discussion.
     7  +6 2014 aug 08jetusa high gurniI need a new pressure washer- any advice [Archive] - dbw i have a gerni one not a dear model but ideal for bike and stuff as you .....
     7  +13 2014 jul 21australian standard stickerHow Important is the Australian Standards Sticker on a helmet I'm thinking of buying a helmet off the net from the States. They're still Snell and Dot approved but don't have the Australian Standards Sticker  ... Fox V2 Pilot - Torpedo 7 No Aus Standard Sticker ??38 posts22 May 2012Did i make a bad move buying helmets from USA?23 posts23 Mar 2010More results from www.dirtbikeworld.net
     7  -2 2014 jul 18motorbike suspension brisbaneSuspension GURUS in Brisbane [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Can anyone tell me the name of anyone who can setup suspension in Brisbane . I have heard of MPE, but cant seem to find any details on them ...
     7  -3 2014 jul 17kenny enduro jacketsHelp buying a enduro jacket whats best - Page 2 - dbw Page 2- Help buying a enduro jacket whats best General Bike Related Discussion. ... Has anyone tried the Kenny Enduro Jacket ? They look ... Enduro jackets 10 posts24 Apr 2014 Kenny Racing aus Thumbs Down6 posts1 Mar 2014More results from www.dirtbikeworld.net
     8  -6 2014 sep 15husqvarna 125 sm 2008 manualHusqvarna Manuals [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members Forums2003 WRE 125 Workshop Manual 2003 SM 125 S Workshop Manual 2003 250 – 450 ENGINES WORKSHOP MANUAL 2005 FRAME TC – TE ...
     8  ~ 2014 sep 122006 450er keeps stallingCRF450R 2009 for trail riding [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net he put a rekluse in it and it would still stall apparently, even though they are supposed to be ... back in June 2006 I actually went into Peter Stevens with the intention to buy a 450X, ... The 450R engine just keeps on delivering.
     8  +8 2014 aug 09kwilla decking bonesWhat type of timber for a deck ??? - Page 3 - dbw - dirtbikeworld The decking material will also need to be decided on. Some of the ... 90x19 Merbau or Kwila is your decking . Nail it down ... F'n collar bone !
     8  +18 2014 aug 07led lights gladesvilleLED Downlights - advice please [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net I have no idea what you just said, but I too want led lighting . ..... a place in Gladesville (Mode lighting i think theyre called) that sold the ecogem ...
     8  +7 2014 jul 31new car brokers melbourneAnyone purchased a new car through a broker in Melbourne ? [Archive 8 years ago he bought a beautiful Monaro for about $8k cheaper than any dealer could match through a car broker . I think he paid a several ...
     8  -1 2014 jul 22hinson clutch australiafor those who know hinson clutches (question) - dbw so yeah maybe i DONT have a hinson clutch only a hinson clutch cover in which case ive been rorted slipping too so it seems thought there ... WR250F Which clutch kit to buy?10 posts20 Jan 2010 Hinson vs Rekluse10 posts8 Aug 2009Another Hinson Slipper clutch review.10 posts10 Mar 2008More results from www.dirtbikeworld.net
     8  +4 2014 jul 18matestock ea sound300 BERG Club [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members Forumsfrom day one, but compared to a mate's stock 300 it sounds more 4 stroke lol .... I ride anywhere between S/ E QLD and Mid/Northern NSW.
     9  +3 2014 sep 30gas gas isdeGasGas Forum [Archive] - Page 4 - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members GasGas Forum. PDA. View Full Version : GasGas Forum
     9  +28 2014 sep 05honda crfx 2005dirtbikeworld.net Reviews - 2005 Honda CRF450X2005 Honda CRF450X - Could this be the bike that turns Drew RED ... Inside the goggles was an invite to test Honda's long awaited CRF450X .
     9  -3 2014 aug 16tires for drzBest tyres for the DRZ400 .. - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsAny recommendations on the best all-round tyres for the DRZ400 . My last ride ( XR600) seemed to be happiest on the Dunlop 606's.
     9  ~ 2014 jul 17forma australian distributorForma D. Comp Pivot issue - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsFrontier Distribution PL. 3/45 Wallis Street Seymour, 3660, Victoria, AUSTRALIA Ph: 0357 923888. They are the Australian distributors for forma  ... More results from www.dirtbikeworld.net
     10  +19 2014 oct 01gaerne spare partsGroup Buy- Gaerne SG12 Boot Spares - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Group Buy- Gaerne SG12 Boot Spares General Bike Related Discussion.
     10  +15 2014 sep 21chad reed renthal barHandle Bars is there a sizing formula ?? [Archive] - dbw Renthal Fat Bar - RC 971 High bend. Pro Taper Bar - Chad Reed bend. Both mega high bend with lots of sweep and wide to suit my height *A ...
     10  +12 2014 sep 19mitas barum 35tracking down a tyre [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members Probably just as good, but I am keen to try the Mitas Stone King as the riding i mainly do is the high country and its a ... 03-02-2006, 10: 35 AM ... Barum was taken over by Mitas who have some sort of alliance with Trelleborg.
     10  -1 2014 sep 11yamaha wr kick tricksStarting the WR [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members Forums[Archive] Starting the WR General Bike Related Discussion.
     10  -5 2014 sep 11efi 2tEFi for 2 stroke - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsJust read that theres a company in the US (of course) selling EFi kits for your 2 banger! but they're not cheap.(of course)
     10  +1 2014 aug 22kidney belt runningKidney belt [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members Forums[Archive] Kidney belt General Bike Related Discussion. ... surprised myself how quickly I could turn the bike and i wasn't running out of breath.
     10  +18 2014 aug 11motul coolant factory lineMotul Factory line coolant [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net I just replaced my coolant and used Motul factory line (ready to use) Didn't quite have enough to fill the radiators with so will topping them up ...
     10  +8 2014 aug 05cheaper options to epirbEPIRBS - what's good? [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members Havnt had an EPIRB , found the best option for me solo climbing was .... research there are plenty of other similar options , probably cheaper too.
     10  +4 2014 aug 02jayco work n playMetalink Camper Vs Jayco WorknPlay - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Metalink Camper Vs Jayco WorknPlay dbw User Reviews.
     10  -2 2014 jul 20plt to kmlGoogle Earth KZM to Oziexplorer PLT conversion. - dbw That may do KML files, i couldnt get it to work. but I have something else that will do those. Doesnt seem like it will do KMZ files though.
     10  +91 2014 jul 19transport bicycles vanBike Transport - Toyota Hiace van or similar?? - dbw As far as camping goes, I only mean from the point of view of a bike /camping weekend
     11  -3 2014 sep 29yamaha motor australia head officeYamaha Aust Phone Number - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsI need to get in contact with Yamaha Australia but can't find their phone number anywhere. If anyone has it ... Thumbs up Yamaha Motor Australia Phone No. Try ( 02) 9757 0011 for the swich at the head office in wetherill park ...
     11  +3 2014 aug 28mig welder total toolsLincoln 180c Mig welder [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net [Archive] Lincoln 180c Mig welder Off Track Talk. ... going to go into Total Tools to see there Uni-mig this arvo had a look at the Lincoln ...
     11  +13 2014 aug 10distributor pre motul2T oil [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsUsed to run Motul 800 but it's dearer by weight than gold. ... I used to buy Mobil 1, 2t Racing fully synthetic from my distributor for @ $60 for 4 litres. It left my Gasser ..... high resistance to harmful pre -ignition, a severe problem
     11  ~ 2014 aug 10bike alt codeThe Alt /# Alt / Alt *FNT........... Motorbike fails - dirtbikeworld.net The Alt /# Alt / Alt *FNT........... Motorbike fails Off Track Talk. ... BB code is On. Smilies are On. [IMG] code is On. HTML code is Off ...
     11  +43 2014 jul 23scott steering damperdirtbikeworld.net - Reviews - Scotts Steering DamperI have always been sceptical about steering dampers . However when the opportunity came up to test the Scotts unit I was willing to give it a go and finally, find ...
     11  +2 2014 jul 22black rock tyresThe Black Rock Tyre Review - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsTo celebrate our reunion i had to then head over to the good people at Mainjet to pick up the afore mentioned Black Rock tyres . The gentle man ...
     12  +5 2014 oct 04revs check qldREVS Check , who does them for MX bikes - QLD - dbw - dirtbikeworld I have just bought one, over the net and want to check if it?s stolen or has money owing on it, before I collect. I?m pretty confident it doesn?t, but ...
     12  +2 2014 oct 01scotts steering damper saleThe Scotts Damper mounts with it's own bracket replacing the original top bar clamps. It is easier if you have ... Scotts Steering Damper is unquestionable.
     12  ~ 2014 sep 06triton ute quad bikeBest Triton Ute Canopy - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsBest Triton Ute Canopy Off Track Talk. ... Hi all, About to order a new Mitsubishi Triton dual cab and want a canopy. Options are ... Current Bikes
     12  -3 2014 aug 14bucks party gamesBucks party ideas..... - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsAs part of any bucks night there should be games and lots of them, 1 i used on the last party i went to was called "poo pants", simple game , you ...
     12  +6 2014 aug 08car brokers melbourne
     12  +6 2014 aug 07downlight gladesville nswAfter all the info in this thread I found a place in Gladesville (Mode lighting i think theyre called) that sold the ecogem led downlights mentioned ...
     12  +3 2014 jul 27tyre inflator foamemergency foam tyre inflator - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members Forumsemergency foam tyre inflator General Bike Related Discussion.
     12  +19 2014 jul 25innova mx tiresanuone try this cheap and dodgy tyre ??? [Archive] - dbw makes camo tyres ! d_camouglage.php ... http:// www.torpedo7.com.au/division/ motocross /menu/72-TY/title/ Tyres
     12  +13 2014 jul 25buy go pro melbourneGoPro Camera - Where to get one? (Melbournes east) - dbw dbw Pro. Join Date: Aug 2007. Location: Ringwood, Vic. Posts: 173 ... Hey guys, I' m looking at getting a GoPro camera, where in the best place to buy one around Melbournes east? (I live in ... Location: melbourne ,australia.
     13  +6 2014 sep 26lifan 140 top speedSuperpostie - CT 140 , how to build. [Archive] - dbw Chinese motor ( Lifan 125, 140 , 150cc is a good start) .... frame, set up the gearing to get some good top end speed , remove the rack and other ...
     13  +2 2014 sep 152012 asbk calendar mcnews19 jan Troy Bayliss Classic - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsClub?s twilight meeting, which is already an iconic event on the National dirt track calendar . ? ... Wayne Maxwel former team Honda rider, ASBK runner up 2012 ...
     13  +1 2014 aug 29legacy of motocrossLegacy Of Motocross Great Vid - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsLegacy Of Motocross Great Vid Videos including Helmet Cam footage.
     13  +3 2014 aug 28decode suzuki vin numberSuzuki Vin Numbers - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsCan anyone tell me how to decode the Vin numbers on a Suzuki frame? Mainly interested in confirming the year. Seems like from the US sites I ...
     13  -1 2014 aug 26asterisk knee bracesKnee Braces - Pod Vs Asterisk Vs CTI ... - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net After about a year of wearing Asterisk braces , they are in need of some maintenance. Problem is, if you buy them in the US, you can't get them ...
     13  +88 2014 aug 07wall waterproofing gauzeHave a waterproofing kit for the wet room style shower.
     13  +1 2014 aug 04australian dirt bikedbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members Forums - Powered by vBulletinThis is a discussion forum for Australian dirtbike riders.
     13  +2 2014 aug 02australian standards stickerI'm thinking of buying a helmet off the net from the States. They're still Snell and Dot approved but don't have the Australian Standards Sticker  ...
     14  -1 2014 sep 16thor knee brraceAsterisk Knee Braces - Worth the expense...??? - dirtbikeworld.net Have previously worn the Thor Force Knee Guards and have ended up ... But seriously, I did an 86 page Uni assignment on knee braces what ...
     14  -1 2014 sep 13thor knee brace
     14  +9 2014 sep 06beta 350 rrEnduro21 TESTED ? 2015 BETA 350 RR (EFI version) - dbw It?s only the 350 RR that?s gained EFI and true to form Beta have avoided heading down the ?normal? Keihin EFI route by opting to use the ...
     14  ~ 2014 aug 18workcover certificare of cExcavator ticket [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsIf you would like to obtain a certificate of competency before 30 September 2011, you can be assessed by a WorkCover accredited assessor ...
     14  +20 2014 jul 29fox awg pantsWhat pants to buy? - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsI need some new riding pants and I'm after some that have a decent belt or buckle system on the .... I got FOX AWG (All Weather Gear) pants .
     14  +13 2014 jul 29radiator cover drzDRZ400 Radiator Guards - B&B, Force or Unibiker? - dbw Currently in the market for a pair of radiator guards to protect my new ... They also don't appear to cover the bottom tank as much as the others.
     14  +39 2014 jul 18scuba steve burnoutBurnouts in customers car - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsBurnouts in customers car Off Track Talk. ... Originally Posted by Scuba Steve View Post. Pricks. Would have been interesting had it been ...
     14  -1 2014 jul 16lightstorm led rigid barDriving lights/Spot lights [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net with them VS Narva/ Lightstorm /Hella/Roolight/IPF etc. obviously you get what you
     15  ~ 2014 sep 27hdd media player52TB HDD HDMI Media Player [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net [Archive] 2TB HDD HDMI Media Player Off Track Talk. ... /Western-Digital-WD- 2000GB-2TB- HDD -HDMI- Media - Player-5 -1-/230619010315?pt= ...
     15  -1 2014 sep 15penrite sin 10 evoDBW's newest sponsor - Penrite Australia [Archive] - dbw We used Penrite oils in our Mitsu Evo rally cars in the mid 90's doing the Aust Rally Championship. ... my personal fav, HPR GAS10 ; the value option for the wet clutch 4t ..... I use Penrite Sin in the 2t and never had an issue.
     15  +7 2014 sep 03bbt chainsawArborist Chainsaws & Carrying [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net (BBT -25CC-NEW- CHAINSAW -Arborist- Chain-Saw - Tree-Pruner-/350430928453?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash ...
     15  +86 2014 aug 26xe transfer rateXE Trade Money Transfers ? - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsTurned out to be one of the easiest steps - plenty of tools on the website to monitor the transfer rates , you then lock in the trade and someone ...
     15  -2 2014 aug 24dooralong valley resortDooralong Valley Resort SOLD!!! [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld I have just had inside word that dooralong valley resort has been officially sold to Anthony Mundine to create a "respite" center for troubled ...
     15  +2 2014 aug 22clarke fuel tankClarke Fuel Tank , Natural Colour - 10' WR450 - dbw - dirtbikeworld I didn't want to change the look of the bike too much so I chose the Clarke tank . This allowed me to fit the tank and put the original shrouds back ...
     15  -8 2014 aug 17blackridge air compressorLets talk Cheap Air Compressors ! - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members I see supercheap have a blackridge for $221 at the moment with a free 50peice air tool kit (value: $220). Would something like this be the go.
     15  +16 2014 aug 14private hospital cover mbfI want Ambulance Cover [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members I think you sign on with medibank private or hcf or one of the others
     15  +1 2014 aug 09hire a hubby franchiseHire a Hubby Traddie Van recommendations [Archive] - dbw A mate of mine is looking to purchase a hire a hubby franchise in Melb and as part of the requirement he must purchase a white clean relatively ...
     15  ~ 2014 jul 24peter stevens jet skisPeter Stevens Group lays off 50 staff - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Peter Stevens Group lays off 50 staff General Bike Related Discussion. ... though and is going to go out on his own ( jet ski /motorbike mechanic) ...
     16  +85 2014 sep 04motorcycle torque wrenchTorque Wrench question and recommendation wanted [Archive] - dbw Is there anything special or different about a torque wrench thats made for ... Even in 3/8" most torque wrenches are out of scale for motorcycles .
     16  +34 2014 aug 28asterisk knee brace
     16  +4 2014 aug 16vw transporter towing capacityTowing Capabilities .. [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members Just after some info on towing capabilities of some late model Diesel Vans eg, Ford Transit or VW Transporter . I am planning on a Van soon ...
     16  +85 2014 aug 08backpack soalhaven headsNowra ride - 19th May - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsNowra ride - 19th May New South Wales Rides. ... Location: Shoalhaven Heads ... Hay Mate don't forget to take these in your backpack .
     16  -1 2014 jul 30ogio flight vestOGIO flight Vest - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members ForumsIf the back pack has seen its day and you are looking to replace it with a new item then look at the OGIO Flight vest . Rather than having a ...
     16  +7 2014 jul 18living in darwin australiaLiving and working in Darwin NT. good?? Bad?? [Archive] - dbw But yes Darwin is beautiful in the cooler months May - Sept, BUT it
     16  ~ 2014 jul 18red bull tv setes2014 Redbull Romaniacs [Archive] - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members [Archive] 2014 Redbull Romaniacs Competition & Racing.
     17  -12 2014 aug 27gps bike bathGPS for Trail riding? - dbw - dirtbikeworld.net Members Forumsjust wondering if any of you have a gps setup for your bike ? ... You could leave a trail of breadcrumbs, though that didn't work too well for ...
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